Version 3 Trouble.

[Richard]

Hi,
What is going on with version 3. We have used your controls with great intensity, and moving to version 3 has brought our development to a standstill. Every day there are new weird and wonderful bugs, to the point that I nearly have a stroke everytime I open a form, compile or even open .NET.

The more of your controls we use on one form the more problems there are, especially with your docking manager. That control simply will not behave.

When do you expect to have a stable product again. Or alternatively can you recommend another product from one of your competitors, that will prove more reliable.

[Daniel Jebaraj]

Hi Rich,

Thank you for voicing your concerns.

Most reported issues with version 3.0 of the Docking Manager have either been resolved or are close to being resolved. We will have all of them resolved for the next update. Some of the issues with the latest version of the Docking Manager were due to improper regression testing on our side. We have taken steps to correct this and the next update should fix all outstanding issues.

Best regards,
Daniel

>Hi,
>What is going on with version 3. We have used your controls with great intensity, and moving to version 3 has brought our development to a standstill. Every day there are new weird and wonderful bugs, to the point that I nearly have a stroke everytime I open a form, compile or even open .NET.
>
>The more of your controls we use on one form the more problems there are, especially with your docking manager. That control simply will not behave.
>
>When do you expect to have a stable product again. Or alternatively can you recommend another product from one of your competitors, that will prove more reliable.

[Richard]

thanks for your reply.

When do you expect this release to be available?

[Administrator]

Hi Rich

We are working on getting the pieces together for this release and we are expecting it to ship next week.

Thank you for your cooperation and continued support for Syncfusion.

Regards,
Arun

[David Whatley]

So, any news on this new release that fixes this stuff? We can''t even think of moving to 3.0 until the basics are resolved. Still fighting bugs in the 2.x release and hope 3.x will have many of them fixed. :(

-- David

[Administrator]

Hi David

We are still working on addressing open issues and we hope to get a new build ready for internal testing early next week.

Once again, we are sorry for the inconvenience this has caused.

Regards
Arun

[Sue Harris]

Is there are any update on the release date?

Thanks,
Sue

[Administrator]

Hi Sue

We are very close to get an internal build ready for testing. I will post an update as soon as more information becomes available.

Thank you for your patience and cooperation.

Regards
Arun

[John Baker]

Please get these fixes out quickly, as we just updated to 3.0.1.0 and are running into many of the described problems.

[Administrator]

Hi John

We are working on getting this release out and we are currently testing internal builds. We are also implementing a newer licensing system with this version which will make it a lot easier to deploy applications. We are also revamping the documentation and also adding the capabilty of using filters. Also all the documentation will be available on-line with this version.

Thank you for your cooperation and we will post an update as soon this build becomes available for download.

Regards,
Arun

[David Whatley]

I''m sure we all apprechiate all the effort put into these enhancements. But, generally speaking, for a tool set... bug patching fast outweighs any new documentation, licensing scheme or whatever. Wouldn''t you agree?

-- David

[Administrator]

Hi David,

Thanks for the update. If you want the latest fixes, can you go ahead and open a Direct-Trac incident? An Engineer from the Tools team can post instructions for a private patch.

Regards
Arun

[David Whatley]

Actually... that doesn''t work for me every well either. The problem is that you can''t just drop this stuff in. You have to change code in places to make it work. So I want to do this exactly one time. My approach is to wait for a new version and then watch the forums to see if it is stable. 3.0 clearly had some problems, at least in the docking department. So I wisely held off.

-- David

[Sue Harris]

Is there any update on when the next version is expected to be released?

Like David, I watch the forums after a release to ensure that the release is stable before upgrading, and I''m holding off going to version 3 due to the docking problems. But I am very keen to see the new version as there looks to be some good improvements as well as some bug fixes which I''m waiting on.

A patch build can be alright if it''s low impact (which version 3 isn''t) and in the middle of a development cycle, but I''m approaching a release and can''t afford to put in a private patch build. Back in early Febuary you were confident that a release was almost ready. Its over a month later, and we''ve had no updates or news for some time.... Whats happening?

Sue

[Daniel Jebaraj]

Hi Sue,

We are code complete on the service pack. However, we currently have some installation and licensing related issues that we are working on. We should be able to have a build available certainly before the end of this week.

Sorry for the delay.

Best regards,
Daniel

>Is there any update on when the next version is expected to be released?
>
>Like David, I watch the forums after a release to ensure that the release is stable before upgrading, and I''m holding off going to version 3 due to the docking problems. But I am very keen to see the new version as there looks to be some good improvements as well as some bug fixes which I''m waiting on.
>
>A patch build can be alright if it''s low impact (which version 3 isn''t) and in the middle of a development cycle, but I''m approaching a release and can''t afford to put in a private patch build. Back in early Febuary you were confident that a release was almost ready. Its over a month later, and we''ve had no updates or news for some time.... Whats happening?
>
>Sue

[Jinlin Tong]

Hi,

Our upgrade to version 3 had been hold up since the beginning of this year because some of the basic stuff stop working in v3.0.1.0. I haven''t heard anything so far and this really holdding up our schedule which involve using the new features provided in v3.

At mean while, our subscription expired right on time. While renewing the subscription, I am hopping that the new release will come sooooon.

Regards,
Jinlin

>Hi Sue,
>
>We are code complete on the service pack. However, we currently have some installation and licensing related issues that we are working on. We should be able to have a build available certainly before the end of this week.
>
>Sorry for the delay.
>
>Best regards,
>Daniel
>
>>Is there any update on when the next version is expected to be released?
>>
>>Like David, I watch the forums after a release to ensure that the release is stable before upgrading, and I''m holding off going to version 3 due to the docking problems. But I am very keen to see the new version as there looks to be some good improvements as well as some bug fixes which I''m waiting on.
>>
>>A patch build can be alright if it''s low impact (which version 3 isn''t) and in the middle of a development cycle, but I''m approaching a release and can''t afford to put in a private patch build. Back in early Febuary you were confident that a release was almost ready. Its over a month later, and we''ve had no updates or news for some time.... Whats happening?
>>
>>Sue

[Administrator]

Ok this is getting to be ridiculous. Daniel promised me a grid on 3/14, which would be a beta. Did I get that? NO. Promised it on 3/16 and do you think I got that? NO. Promised it on Friday and even received a phone call in the morning swearing I’d have it by the end of Friday 3/18. Think I got that one? NO!!! You know writing apps myself I understand how releasing them can sometimes take time. This is getting to be more then that. Not only was I promised this new grid last week I was promised it at least 3 or 4 other times if not more before that. Now here it is 3/21 and here I sit. Still waiting for this grid that on today Daniel promised me the FULL release version from the 3/14 date he promised me the beta. You know I called and complained about how I feel like you guys need to be paying some of us for beta testing your app. This is where I talked to Daniel who basically told me that the grid is in a non-Microsoft Office state meaning I can only expect bugs and that some of the bug’s people are finding they never dreamed people would do. I get that. What I don’t get is when you fix these bugs and then they cause 700 other bugs. I swear that phone call was more like lets stroke Phil''s ego to make him not be so upset. Since 3010 came out all I’ve been doing is half my day is writing and testing our app and the other half is finding bugs in the grid and then making samples and then sending questions to the forum. Speaking of the forum that’s where I must agree with all the other users of it. Your forums service can’t be beat anywhere. I have nothing but good things to say about it and the level of service and response time I get. That’s unbeatable by anyone else in the market. What bothers me is back to these release dates where you promise me something and then I promise people things on my end. Now not only do I sit here with no grid I sit here with broken promises on my end. That’s not how I do things.

[Daniel Jebaraj]

Hi Phil,

We understand your frustration with the delays. We are very close. Please bear with us as we push this out the door.

Best regards,
Daniel

>Ok this is getting to be ridiculous. Daniel promised me a grid on 3/14, which would be a beta. Did I get that? NO. Promised it on 3/16 and do you think I got that? NO. Promised it on Friday and even received a phone call in the morning swearing I’d have it by the end of Friday 3/18. Think I got that one? NO!!! You know writing apps myself I understand how releasing them can sometimes take time. This is getting to be more then that. Not only was I promised this new grid last week I was promised it at least 3 or 4 other times if not more before that. Now here it is 3/21 and here I sit. Still waiting for this grid that on today Daniel promised me the FULL release version from the 3/14 date he promised me the beta. You know I called and complained about how I feel like you guys need to be paying some of us for beta testing your app. This is where I talked to Daniel who basically told me that the grid is in a non-Microsoft Office state meaning I can only expect bugs and that some of the bug’s people are finding they never dreamed people would do. I get that. What I don’t get is when you fix these bugs and then they cause 700 other bugs. I swear that phone call was more like lets stroke Phil''s ego to make him not be so upset. Since 3010 came out all I’ve been doing is half my day is writing and testing our app and the other half is finding bugs in the grid and then making samples and then sending questions to the forum. Speaking of the forum that’s where I must agree with all the other users of it. Your forums service can’t be beat anywhere. I have nothing but good things to say about it and the level of service and response time I get. That’s unbeatable by anyone else in the market. What bothers me is back to these release dates where you promise me something and then I promise people things on my end. Now not only do I sit here with no grid I sit here with broken promises on my end. That’s not how I do things.

[Administrator]

I don’t get it. I was told it was being pushed to your servers on Friday afternoon at like 3. That process he said would take about an hour and I would be guaranteed to have it first thing today when I got in.

[David Whatley]

Ultimately it does no good to push them harder than they are going. Otherwise they might release something they don''t even believe is right yet. The basic problem they are having, I would imagine, is the same one all developers have: As the application gets more complex, it becomes more unstable. A tug on one thread pulls the whole web.

My gripe isn''t with this delay, but with the constant adding of new stuff that seems to be clearly beyond their staffing to handle. For example, the complete rewrite of the editor which was still inadquate for any real task. It seems that Syncfusion keeps adding new parts, but then they don''t have enough bandwidth to fully realize them, much less get the old parts working right.

I know it is a delicate balance... new features are needed to keep up with the Joneses. But the thing that always made Syncfusion great in the past was that it worked and bugs were addressed fast.

Now bugs don''t seem to be addressed fast anymore. This next release, which in my opinion, should JUST be getting what 3.0 does working right... again has new features! So that''s bandwidth taken away from bug swatting to make new stuff, and probably introduce new bugs... and of course new stuff to support. Meanwhile I can''t move from my 2.x stuff because 3.0 isn''t working right, and its better to live with the bugs of 2.x than have the 3.0 ones.

You can tell they are streached thin. Take a look at how the forms in these forums or DirectTrac look in FireFox. I reported this a few times over the last months and they still haven''t made the simple tweaks to fix it. They are probably redesigning all of the web site with new features too instead of just getting it to work correctly (which it bearly needs anything to make 100%).

Yep, their responsiveness to support questions and the forums is top notch; if sometimes trite: I get tired of being thanked for my support and for using Syncfusion. :) Be meaner and fix bugs faster, I say! (grin)

BTW, you see this same thing everywhere. Discreet comes out with new version of 3D Studio Max loaded with questionable new features and TONs of new bugs (and old ones still not addressed) constantly. I made quite a stink about it when they visited our offices. The poor guy was like, "Yeah, everyone tells us that. But the marketing people won''t let us risk releases that don''t have new features to tout." (sigh)

-- David

[Trevor Fritz]

Well they better come out with their package soon since most of the stuff in the Syncfusion suite is available in VS 2005. Makes you wonder about that 1500$ Syncfusion investment when the features are rock solid stable in VS 2005.

[Administrator]

There is built in docking, charts, diagrams, and turbo charged grids in VS 2005? I have not heard of such features.

I did try Beta 1 however, and I wish Christmas would come early this year and MS releases it this summer.

[Administrator]

+1

> It seems that Syncfusion keeps adding new parts, but then they don''t have enough bandwidth to fully realize them, much less get the old parts working right.

[Sue Harris]

Daniel,

It''s been over a week since we''ve heard from you. You had said that you''re very close. Is there any update on this? *Please* tell us whats happening.

Sue
(P.S. What happened to the blogs that were added to the forums after version 2 was released?)

[Daniel Jebaraj]

Dear customers, First of all apologies for the inexcusable delay in getting version 3.2 out the door. In the past when we had delays they were always tied to the code not being ready. This time around, we focussed on getting this right (added resources, managed the projects more aggressively etc). The code was available on time. However, we had started on some changes to licensing and the install that ended up taking way more time than we had anticipated. We have this behind us. There will be changes to ensure that future releases will definitely arrive on time. With reference to the website, we have several issues that have been pending for a while. However, we have not been ignoring these issues. We have just been progressing in an internally decided order. For this release cycle we wanted to fix the QA issue system that we were using. In the past live QA tracking was not working as expected. We completely revamped this system and live tracking of QA issues now works as expected. We are probably the only component vendor to provide a live view of our bug database to all website visitors:) We have also completely revamped our KB system. It is much more user friendly now and you can be assured that we will be adding articles very quickly in the weeks to come. We have also added a very nice search system to our KB and Open Issues areas. You can test drive this search system now. We are currently working on expanding this search to the forums and also to the rest of the site. Another goal of this release cycle was to get our documentation published weekly to the web. This has also been accomplished and you can view the results at http://www.syncfusion.com/library/. We will be updating this content every week as topics get worked on internally. This is to ensure that most documentation issues that are reported are quickly addressed and the results are made available to users immediately. The Blogs have been temporarily removed from the forum links because they were not getting updated often enough. Please give us 2 days more to make a build available. Thanks & best regards, Daniel

[Ne]

I''ve had this release around since December and just installed and opened my applications and changed the few things they mentioned. My fricking application was completely broken. NOTHING WORKED but the status bar.

This is pathetic. How could something like this slip by ? Obviously, there was no testing.

Syncfusion has been consistantly late on all of their updates. Not midly late, but excessively late.

I had trusted Syncfusion but will now look for another vendor. If Microsoft 2005 provides this then I''ll go there. Otherwise ... any recommendations from others that are in the same situation ?

Thanks Syncfusion for the fine way that you are treating your customers.
:(

[Administrator]

I can understand your concern... I have been waiting for the next release for a while too. However, I have been using the DirectTrac system to get the latest builds, which have been working great for me.

If you have a problem with Syncfusion, please keep it between you and them, so as to not ruin it for the rest of us that plan on using Syncfusion for many years to come.

The Suite is perfect for my application, and fortunately our release will not happen for many more months, which gives us the time and patience to work around these hiccups which I am sure Syncfusion will resolve.

I wish you luck with your search for other vendors. When I looked for a package that we needed back in September, there were other vendors that had maybe one or two pieces of the Syncfusion Suite, but noone had it all. We needed the grid, tools, diagram, and charts, and Syncfusion was the only vendor that had it all, not to mention the other useful things in the Suite.

I am looking forward to the 3.2 release, and I am putting the past 3 months behind me.

[Ne]

No... I think it''s important for everyone to understand Syncfusion''s pattern of behavior. This is the only way to get them to change it.

Customer centric is key for viability.

[Administrator]

I agree. They need to be far more customer centric than they are now. This is not some cheap software package. This is one of the more premium priced options out there. With a price point of this nature they need to back it up with adequate customer service. What happened to the two days promise of getting a build out? Dont say 2 days if you cant make 2 days. Its better to state an outrageous date and then beat that date then to state a date you guys simply cannot adhere to.

[Daniel Jebaraj]

Dear customers,

We do have an internal build available (http://www.syncfusion.com/squiffler/patches/v3.2.0.0/syncfusionessentialsuitesetup.exe - Automatic key access does not work. Support will however provide keys for this version through Direct-Trac).

We are still fixing some ASP.NET samples. Most of the other configuration issues have been addressed. There will definitely be a stable version by Tuesday.

We understand your frustration. We try hard to be customer centric. In future, we will take these lessons to heart and strive harder to meet your expectations.

Version 3.2 offers some very nice configuration features that are designed to make application development with components much easier. Version 3.2 offers zero-touch ASP.NET sample testing and debugging. Our licensing system has been completely changed to be much cleaner and easier to use based on customer feedback.

Also, Version 3.2 is the most stable and extensive version that we have put out. Please give us just a few more hours. I am confident that you will like version 3.2.

Thanks,
Daniel

[Ne]

I sent a direct trac message, can you send me the update ?

[Administrator]

Hi Ken,

Your Direct-Trac incident has been updated. We appreciate your patience and cooperation.

Regards,
Guru Patwal
Syncfusion, Inc.

[David Whatley]

I''ve been around the block long enough to know that Syncfusion definitely *IS* very customer centric. Software does come late. The quibbles i have are with a difference between their internal priorities and my personal ones. It doesn''t mean they are wrong, just that there is a disconnect with my particular needs. How well that maps to others, I can''t say.

For example, being delayed for ASP samples burns my butt because I don''t use Syncfusion for ASP. But I''m sure lots of other people do.

Delayed because of licensing burns my butt too because I''ve never had a licensing problem, or at least any that their customer service folks couldn''t solve easily. Usually a licensing technology change means that they the company is putting in even more draconian measures to stiffle pirating or whatever... although I can''t say this is what they are doing, I wouldn''t be surprised if it was. :)

My big issue is that there are bugs in 2.x and sometimes when I repor them I get a "Oh, that''s fixed in 3.0!" Yeah. Great. Except 3.0 has all these other bugs that makes the cure worse than the disease. So I have to wait for the 3.2 release, I guess.

I think the response to my criticism of the web fixes shows what I mean. Here I am trying to type this in a postage-stamp size text box because they haven''t bothered to take 10 minutes to fix their web site to size these boxs right with firefox... and the reason for that... because of all these magical new features being added are taking priority. Now that''s all well and good, but it just reinforces my original complaint.... new features AFTER old features work right. Please. Pretty please! I love new features as much as the next guy, but I really really need the existing stuff to work first.

I know the guys with the marketing hats on over there will disagree. But they are evil. Don''t listen to them. (grin)

-- David

[Administrator]

I think we as customers can handle the delays, but the "We will certainly have a release by the end of the week" promise that continues to be broken is the problem that is burning people.

[Administrator]

I have my fingers crossed that tomorrow will be the actual release date for version 3.2. I agree with the above post, it''s the promised release dates that cause the most frustration. If you read the entire thread you will see how many times a release was promised, but never delivered.

I love Syncfusion''s Suite, but if it becomes increasingly unstable I will have to switch to another vendor. It''s important for Syncfusion to realize that most developers (myself included) use their GUI components so that we can focus on implementing the business logic required by our applications. However, when Syncfusions controls are unstable and produce unexpected results we''re the ones the end user looks to for an explanation, or worst yet to vent their frustrations. In my case, it''s my company''s flagship product that can appear to be flawed and/or unstable. I cannot afford to have this customer perception associated with our product.

However, I am confident that this will be the last thread of its kind and version 3.2 will be the answer to our prayers.

Andrew

>I think we as customers can handle the delays, but the "We will certainly have a release by the end of the week" promise that continues to be broken is the problem that is burning people.

[Matt Johnson]

Folks,

Something to cheer you up.

Whatever be my concerns, I don''t think that any of the other vendors out there even come close in terms of the technical depth of the solutions and the support that you offer. Never in the past have I worked with a component vendor who at least sincerely makes an attempt to respond to every customer concern. You guys truly are a breath of fresh air. Unless you really tick me off somehow I am sticking with you for the long run. There is simply no better vendor out there! Now, just get the dates right :)

\\Matt

[David Whatley]

Yeah, they do so considerable concern. But there are other vendors who do too. Acitpro software, for example. Besides the usual support, they do online chats where you can discuss stuff directly with the coders. Heck, you can even IM them if you have a problem!

I had to switch to Actipro for their SyntaxEditor because the Syncfusion Editor was so woefully under-implemented. I presume it''ll catch up eventually, but I couldn''t wait.

The problem, though, is that as Actipro adds more tools to their offerings, I expect their support to thin out much as Syncfusion has. Because more products means more bugs, means more feature requests, etc. So, for them, its a honeymoon period with the users. Good to take advantage of when it comes I guess. :)

BTW, did 3.2 come out today? I didn''t notice any mention.

-- David